Is this possible?

[star2020]

Is it possible for somebody to have a blackbelt in hap ki do and not know about the cane techniques?

[Klaas Barends]

Yes.

But he should at least know about them.

[jinmukwan]

Generally cane techniques are not taught in Korea until 4th Dan. One should at least know about them even at blue belt!!!

[mateo]

Yes.

But he should at least know about them.

Klaas, I love your responses. You give me faith that 'dry humour' is possible on the internet!

[Reno Leuc]

I suppose yes.
Always considered the cane as a signature weapon for Hapkido.
Therefore, I'd say at least green or blue should be aware that the cane is a weapon taught in this art.

But then again, what difference does it make?
Everyone focus on different goals, right?

I suspect Nunjucks the signature weapon for JKD.

[vincent]

The o/p doesnt mention the rank of the HKD person in question. I could see a mid-colored belt etc might not know of cane but would think if a 1st dan etc doesnt know of it's existance (even if its not in THEIR sysytem) then I would question the validity of what 'hapkido' they've studied.


BTW Reno- Just for your info, actually no, contrary to popular belief Nunchuku isnt part of JKD.
I guess a few instructors might teach for fun but personally Ive never heard of this being done.
The only weapons associated with JKD are Fillipino ones where a person going th path of the the JKD/Kali blend as taught by most (but not all ) instructors that come from Dan Inosanto's JKD lineage.

[Klaas Barends]

I am a 5th dan but I never really interested myself for the cane.
I know some techniques, but I would use the cane much more to hit somebody with and not really for hooking or locking. That is my personal taste.

A lot of the techniques I see are for people who don't need a cane yet.

[Thomas]

In Korea, we did a little bit of cane at first dan (an intro basically). At my school (Combat Hapkido), I teach some basic cane at mid color belt level (more of an intro) and then leave further study until after 1st dan. For us, it is a recommended module of study but not mandatory. I don't encourage students to study it in any depth until 1st or 2nd dan...

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Is it possible for somebody to have a blackbelt in hap ki do and not know about the cane techniques?

I believe cane is 3rd dan in Sinmoo.

My 1st dans don't do cane.

[doowon]

I Love the Cane and are training with it all the time. Master Stuart is right in Sin Moo we learn it at 3rd Dan. But As it is My Favorit along with the Dan Bong and Rope I teach it to color belt students once a week. So when they come up to Dan level they know it quait well=).

[Reno Leuc]

Thanks Vicent for clarification

Personally, I love MA weapons. Long pole or staff is my favourite and the cane.
Only know a few techniques but I have say that most of the cane techniques are not really suitable for people who actually need a cane *gg

If your knees are ... well, let's say kind of gone and you need a cane, you're pretty much limited to the strikes rather than locking not to speak to throw someone.
I'd rather suggest someone in need with a cane to also carry a dan bong.

But Hapkido is a awesome art and the cane techniques show that in a beautiful way. I believe it just shows one more degree of dedication to the art, if you have knowledge of the arts weapons

[Bruce W Sims]

I agree that there are some wonderful weapons training modules to learn, but I fear for the survival of the material in any sort of cohesive form.

I have been to more than a few seminars in my lifetime in which people share techniques from a given weapon, say cane, or stick or sword. Honestly, its a seminar so one does not expect an exhaustive presentation of an entire catalog of techniques for a given weapon, right? However, what I am finding is that training in the weapons is not much different when one goes to a particular school either and this is what concerns me.

When we teach unarmed techniques, I don't think any of us starts a beginner with some sort of sophisticated transition approach utilizing two or more techniques and ending in a pin or throw, right. We start at the basic techniques and move to the more sophisticated, yes? Well, why is it different with weapons?

A weapon needs to be taught just like unarmed techniques. First, a foundation in basic handling techniques, followed by paired work, followed by free-form work. There is a huge amount of material that is being lost because people are not taught the foundation to handling a particular weapon. Then, when they try to do something more sophisticated, the technique fails and they lose confidence that the material ever worked in the first place. The matter of rope techniques is a good example.

The techniques we associate with a "belt" or "rope" are closely related to the use of the "jul" or cord used to suspend the sword a Korean carried for long distances or when mounted. However, introduction for this sort of work starts with lanyard work. Some schools still practice this when teaching their DAN BONG or SOH BONG material. Geoff Booth (see: Australian Hapkido) has done a fine job of up-grading this material in his practice and is a wonderful teacher in the bargain! What I see, though, is that many teachers and most students want to jump straight to the trapping and throwing techniques of the JUL without first understanding the fundamentals of the lanyard to begin with. I could go on about the sword, cane and staff but I think you folks get the idea. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

The techniques we associate with a "belt" or "rope" are closely related to the use of the "jul" or cord used to suspend the sword a Korean carried for long distances or when mounted.

From Korea through Japan and back to Korea?

Bruce I fear this paints a picture tied to the mythical 2000 year old stories.

Any chance rope techniques come from a position of tying up thugs, deserters etc. ?

I still advocate a good learning system just not the made up stories ; )

Dave O.

[Bruce W Sims]

The techniques we associate with a "belt" or "rope" are closely related to the use of the "jul" or cord used to suspend the sword a Korean carried for long distances or when mounted.

From Korea through Japan and back to Korea?

Bruce I fear this paints a picture tied to the mythical 2000 year old stories.

Any chance rope techniques come from a position of tying up thugs, deserters etc. ?

I still advocate a good learning system just not the made up stories ; )

Dave O.

I guess I am just losing my ability to express myself well.

The idea of using cords to tie-up bad guys is still represented in the cord that the Tokyo Metropolitan Police carry in their shirt pocket to this day. There is, in fact, a whole system of using this long cord for binding suspects termed HOJO-JUTSU. Don Angier Sensei (see: YANAGI-Ryu) has a fine pair of tapes out on the subject, but this is not what I am writing about.

In the case of using the JUL for "rope techniques" the idea was that a person who had lost his primary weapon could avail himself of this practice. Since the Koreans did not typically take their sheathes on the battlefield with them, they would not have had such an item readily available. However, that is not to say that one might not have taken such an item from a fallen ally or an enemy. The same can be said of using the sheath as a defensive weapon as well.

As far as the other comments go, there is probably room for adjustment.

a.) There is little need to speak in terms of arts going from Korea to Japan and back again. The Koreans had their own practices and traditions and picking up on things from other cultures would only have served as an adjunct as the story of HAN KYO and the Japanese kata he learned suggest.

b.) As far as the stories going back 2000 years I'm afraid I can't help you with that since the literary records were destroyed during the YUAN Dyansty with the Mongol invasion of Korea. Its been demonstrated repeatedly that stories going back to the "HWARANG" and such are artful contrivances to lend veracity to stuff made-up for the modern (Post WW II) consumer.

c.) Lastly, I too advocate for a good learning system. However, what that takes is time and dedication and the willingness to submit to training under a teacher who knows what he is doing. Absent this, you get the sort of situation the KSW people have right now with the leadership making things up as they go along in order to keep feeding material to the ever-hungry membership and keep them engaged. In my own case I have stopped bickering around with people in the Hapkido community as I have discovered that the incessant bickering is just their way of saying "I know a little bit about that; mind if I pretend I know more?" FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

I think it just read funny.

Too many folks it could look like the doctrine of "Korean arts came from".

I knew that was not even your point. Just wanted to make sure it was not left out there.

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, Dave. From where I sit today, I think its just a losing battle. There is just so much bickering back and forth that nothing is ever actually resolved. And, the whole time the arguing is going on the Arts- their material, their beliefs and so forth-- are dying and/or being replaced by stuff culled from other practices of other cultures. Sometimes I feel like the KMA situation is a lot like passengers on the TITANIC arguing about the best way to spell the word "lifeboat". After a while I just shake my head. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

Cant argree more with you there. Thats why I just stick to what I know works. A smart person wrote this and they are right.

"what that takes is time and dedication and the willingness to submit to training under a teacher who knows what he is doing"

Cheers,

Dave O.

[Thomas Gordon]

I've used the cane a few times but certainly wouldn't consider myself proficient with it. I personally don't care much for weapons as I much as I do empty hand training. I've always got my hands and feet.

Don't suppose there's a weapon I haven't picked up at some time or another. Cane does seem to be a favorite for Hapkido folks.

[Jointlock]

I'm leaning toward getting an unbreakable umbrella myself. I like the cane techniques but I don't really need a cane to walk and would probably look silly carrying one around at my age (32).

Does anyone own an Unbreakable umbrella. Is it worth the purchase?

[Bruce W Sims]

I'm leaning toward getting an unbreakable umbrella myself. I like the cane techniques but I don't really need a cane to walk and would probably look silly carrying one around at my age (32).

Does anyone own an Unbreakable umbrella. Is it worth the purchase?

An alternate approach might be to polish-up your DAN BONG material and locate a nice heavy folding umbrella. There have been items that have come through the checkpoint with some real "heft" to them and about a foot long. OTOH, the cane material in the KWAN I belong to is really meant for a cane, and not an umbrella. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce