What level should a masters tech look like?

[Stuart Rosenberg]

I know this is subjective and a lot of factors are involved, so let's look at this in a general sense.

Here's a few clips for starters.

Lee chang Soo - World class master he would certainly be at the top of the scale for speed, power, precision, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVTAWLJC ... re=related

Ji Han jae as seen in his prime in Lady Hapkido 3:00 minute in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utFzMgOWQBE

John Pelligrini - Combat HKD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXz1-3cu ... =1&index=6

[Daniel]

Last time I was in Korea I asked many Hapkido masters this very same question - I was trying capture what ingredient, what skill, what elements distinguish say a 4th degree from a 1st degree.

One really good answer (from Master Choi of Hapkido Cheong Kyum Kwan) was that the techniques are pretty much the same. However with a 1st degree the defender moves about as much as the attacker. So for a defender's movement of say magnitude 5 , the attacker is seen to respond with a movement of magnitude 5.

However for a 4th degree, the defender's movement's should be much smaller and the attackers response much larger. So the defender would appear to move with a magnitude of 2 and the attacker would respond with a movement of 8.

Also as the black belt moves up in the ranks, the circles are smaller and appear to require less effort.

We have explained the progression through the ranks in this way to our black belts and it has helped them greatly in understanding what specific skills they should be working on.

I have also heard the difference expressed a the more senior the less muscle and more Ki - but that is very hard to measure and observe and does not really help the student progress in a tangible manner.

As for the videos you have posted - i think it is difficult to compare demo videos to movie scenes to instructional videos - I understand the simple answer is that Master Pellegrini does not move like the other two - but is that the only measure of his value to Hapkido? - maybe he is not physically gifted - and yet he has encouraged a lot of people to take an interest in Hapkido (some could say in a masterly manner!).

[Klaas Barends]

One really good answer (from Master Choi of Hapkido Cheong Kyum Kwan) was that the techniques are pretty much the same. However with a 1st degree the defender moves about as much as the attacker. So for a defender's movement of say magnitude 5 , the attacker is seen to respond with a movement of magnitude 5.

However for a 4th degree, the defender's movement's should be much smaller and the attackers response much larger. So the defender would appear to move with a magnitude of 2 and the attacker would respond with a movement of 8.

I am so going to use this, thanks!

[Brian_Beach]

I like that as well - it has echos of Kano -

Suppose we estimate the strength of a man is ten units, whereas my strength, less than his, is seven units. Then if he pushes me with all his force, I shall certainly be pushed back or thrown down, even if I use all my strength against him. This would happen from opposing strength to strength. But if, instead of opposing him, I leave him unresisted, withdrawing my body just as much as he pushes, at the same time keeping my balance, he will naturally lean forward and lose his balance. In this new position he may become so weak (not in actual physical strength, but because of his awkward position) as to reduce his strength for the moment, say to three units only instead of ten. Meanwhile, by keeping my balance, I retain my full strength available for any emergency. Had I greater strength than my opponent, I could of course have pushed him back; but even if I wished to push him back, I should first have left him unresisted, as by so doing I should greatly economize my energy.

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/principles-of-kodokan-judo/185-judo-the-japanese-art-of-self-defense-by-jigoro-kano

[Ben_Smith]

One of the things I have been grappling with (pun intended) is strength vs. conditioning. I think developing technique is very important and in most instances, utilizing good technique should outweigh brute strength, but in a true confrontation, I think physical conditioning often takes the back seat to technique. I'm not saying it's more important but in looking at these demo tapes and films it is very hard for me to get a true sense of the physical conditioning of these gentlemen. And when one focuses on the level of effort aspect of a confrontation, it tends to overshadow and negate the need for physical conditioning which I think is a false assumption.

I gues what I am saying is that until one gets to an age where physical conditions impair ones ability to stay fit, I think a true master should also exhibit top level conditioning in addition to being able to demonstrate top level technique. Does that make sense? Certainly demo videos can't (or purposefully won't) show that.

[Stuart Rosenberg]

I agree that a good technician uses very little strength and a properly cooridinated kinetic chain to have superior skill in technique. Bruce Lee called it "economy of motion." Master Ji's clip shows just that IMO more than the others I posted.

Ben's point was also good. Being into BJJ myself for some time I noticed big strong people can often squash a so called better technician. I think only technicians of the highest level can defeat someone with skill and a lot of raw power but that takes years to develop.

Good thread so far

[mateo]

Power, grace, efficiency and timing should be more evident with more training.

For those of you who don't know, that is my teacher taking licks from Master Ji in that clip.

I never got to see that much in my life!

Nice to know that those who made you suffer were also made to suffer at one time!

I think people may be great leaders/administrators but that doesn't mean that we cannot trust our eyes and make ajudgement as to what teachers have exceptional technique and which do not display exceptional technique.

Here is another clip from the same page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlkpcatJ ... re=related
This teacher moves well, this is an instructional clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8F ... L&index=12
This teacher is much older and moves very well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zD5CAWb ... L&index=14
This teacher moves well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8dgmcJ ... L&index=18
This teacher moves well

Senior hapkido-in who I consider masters show grace and efficiency in their execution of technique while still being able to display power.

Look at :39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDdrnje ... PL&index=2
The power and commitment are very evident in that spinning heel

I watch this video and I see consistently good form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8dgmcJ ... L&index=18

For demos we can judge the effectiveness of the technique directly as people are often 'taking falls' rather than 'being thrown' but someone experienced with the techniques should be able to judge whether that form and execution is possible to create good results.

I don't think it necessary to show less positive clips but I think we can recognize which teachers have exemplary technique and aspire to that regardless of rank or grade.

A leader/administrator may not have the best technique in his organization for a great variety of reasons (age, health, time away from the art). This doesn't mean he hasn't earned respect as a teacher/contributor but also we should not hold up such a person's technique as being ideal out of respect for their grade or position.

On another note:

Here's another little clip of movie fun with my teacher and someone famous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZeeKAqr ... re=related