Shoulder throw in fighting

[mateo]

Shoulder throw has long been a technique whose place of prominance I have pondered.

We trained a lot of standing one armed shoulder throw, http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... clnk&gl=ca
a fair bit of the two handed shoulder throw http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... oinage.htm and some versions of shoulder 'drop' where you do it dropping to one knee.

Now shoulder throw is probably the most practised throw in the world and is favoured by judoka, jiujitsuka, wrestlers both free style and greco ... and dare I say it; hapkido-in. (often with a locked elbow or such)

The thing is; I have often felt that this was for aesthetic reasons rather than practical ones.

How many times have you caught people in full resistance sparring with a standing shoulder throw?

(I'm not implying that you never have. I'm saying, think about the frequency with which you have scored with this one.)

Now think about other throws. Let's take outer leg reap. http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... togari.htm

Personally I would say with confidence that I have scored with this technique hundreds of times more.

So, do you think that shoulder throw is a technique which merits the amount of time that people invest in it?

[Brian_Beach]

Does Judo randori count?

It is something that I like to do in the clinch in Hapkido sparring. It works with varying success. I find more success with hane makikomi.

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... kikomi.htm

[mateo]

Does Judo randori count?

Even in judo randori I would be surprised to see it score as much as an outer reap, an inner reap, a head and arm throw http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... guruma.htm (this is by far the most frequent throw I see done with success by students without a great deal of experience), a 'valley drop' or an inner thigh throw.

It is something that I like to do in the clinch in Hapkido sparring. It works with varying success. I find more success with hane makikomi.

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/b ... kikomi.htm

Do you remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td9jhegNeC0

I agree this one is much easier to force through even if your timing isn't perfect.

Do you find that you often have trouble with people 'taking your back' before you are able to fully turn them into a control position?

[Brian_Beach]

In Judo randori I fond the drop version utilized in "elite" players - the standing version was used more as a set up - usually for some sort of leg reap. In lower levels I found the standing version worked against aggressive players not so well against cautious players. I did find one guy at the Naval Academy that worked me with it - I never felt the kuzushi and he was fast. Fought him twice he beat me with it twice. I was on the mat before I knew what happened.

Was that UFC 2 or 3?

Taking the back do you mean during the throw or when it's completed? I lock down on the arm so any attempt to get to the back facilitates the throw. After the throw I try to make it hurt or at least stunning and roll into them and try to get side control. If unsuccessful I try to use the arm as a lever point like a sit out in wrestling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr1bUjQqNWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZxzahw4sjM

[mateo]

That makes sense.

I meant someone taking the back after the throw but before you had completed rolling them into side position.

I have also found that both top level judoka and wrestlers work the 'drop to the knees' version. It is undoubtedly more effective in contests but I'm suspicious of it for self defense because of the force with which those guys hit the mats with their knees. The techniques seems to rely on having mats. I can't see it being done comfortably (for the thrower) on, say, the driveway.

When I do the drop version I try to keep a kind of 'body drop' or 'seoi otoshi' footwork only dropping lower and moving as if to do a front roll myself. This way I can drop but not onto my knees. There is a bit less momentum with this method to be sure, though.

[Brian_Beach]

There was a extreme drop version that was barred from competition - basic people wrapped up their opponent and dove head first into the mat tucking their head at the last moment. It was causing far too many injuries. I forget the name. It was very effective when it worked.

at :15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be-BoM-WokY

[mateo]

They should really rename that one "shoulder dive" rather than "shoulder drop" !

No one else has any thoughts on shoulder throws place in our curriculum but Brian and I?

I mention this because at our dojang it was taught as the central 'non-jointlocking throw' and was treated as the 'root' or fundamental throwing technique from which other throws descended and so received the greatest amount of training. This is definitely true of shoulder throw's position in the judo curriculum as well.

I've always been struck by the fact that despite its pre-eminent position in training it was not one of the higher scoring throws in the repetoire.

[Brian_Beach]

They should really rename that one "shoulder dive" rather than "shoulder drop" !

No one else has any thoughts on shoulder throws place in our curriculum but Brian and I?

I mention this because at our dojang it was taught as the central 'non-jointlocking throw' and was treated as the 'root' or fundamental throwing technique from which other throws descended and so received the greatest amount of training. This is definitely true of shoulder throw's position in the judo curriculum as well.

I've always been struck by the fact that despite its pre-eminent position in training it was not one of the higher scoring throws in the repetoire.

I think so much time is spent on it because it is central to all hip throws, it looks easy, it's not. Pretty much everyone that starts off thinks they are pulling the guy over their shoulder rather than just loading and sticking him too you with his arm and let the hips do the work. I honestly didn't "get it" until I "learned" it again in Judo (emphasizing the Kuzushi) and utilized it in randori. It's more about getting under him than anything else -if you get the fit the rest is easy. Getting there is hard.

[Ben_Smith]

my thoughts: I am very rusty and need a lot more practice! You would think in BJJ I would get more opportunity to practice throwing but I don't - due mostly to the size of the classes prohibiting us from being able to throw in sparring, we start from the knees. (I don't really consider basic self-defense throwing enough practice to keep the rust off - I need some more live practice.)

[Thomas]

I have used the technique when I was grabbed from behind (put a guy through a sofa)... essentially in the "textbook manner" of defending against a rear grab that we train in class.

In sparring I have used it a few times, especially against Taekwondo guys sparring in "open rules". Of course, I also got "reaped" by a Hapkido guy when I tried it agaisnt him in sparring!

[Hwalmoo]

In sparring I have used it a few times, especially against Taekwondo guys sparring in "open rules". Of course, I also got "reaped" by a Hapkido guy when I tried it agaisnt him in sparring!

My point of view exactly.

It is my strong believe that every kind of technique works. The question is only to use the right technique in the right situation and against the right person.
One should also train his/ her techniques for hours and hours with all of its variations and possibilities ans shape it into something personal. Only then a person can talk about truly mastering a technique.

My opinion about training

Kind greetings