Are some people naturally better at one defense

[S_R_S5]

Are some people naturally better at defense instead of offense? Or does it depend on how you train?

[Bruce W Sims]

I think that one aspect naturally reinforces the other if allowed to do so. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Thomas]

Are some people naturally better at defense instead of offense? Or does it depend on how you train?

I think for "self defense" training, we tend to focus a lot more on "reaction" (defense) instead of "pro-action" (offense). I think the assumption is that we tend not to go looking to fight but may be forced to respond to a situation that finds us. It's not that we can't initiate action, but that we tend to practice reaction.

In Taekwondo, we try to train tournament fighters to do the opposite... initiate vs react...

[mateo]

My teacher always said that the idea many beginners have of only learning to 'defend themselves' is misunderstood.

Defending one's self by only repelling an attack and not responding in a way to hurt one's opponent is in the realm of the highly advanced in terms of skill. Attacking is easier than defending and so to be committed to only defense is viable only in the cases where one's own skills far exceed those of the attacker.

Attack and defense are two sides of the same coin. One cannot really learn to repel attacks unless they understand the attacks and the strategies of attackers well.

[Thomas]

Attack and defense are two sides of the same coin. One cannot really learn to repel attacks unless they understand the attacks and the strategies of attackers well.

Very good point.

That reminds of when we drill defenses against takedowns.... I always have to remember to re-teach "how" to do proper takedowns becuase defending taedowns against a person who doesn't know how to do it doesn't work well (or creates a false sense of security).

[mateo]

Attack and defense are two sides of the same coin. One cannot really learn to repel attacks unless they understand the attacks and the strategies of attackers well.

Very good point.

That reminds of when we drill defenses against takedowns.... I always have to remember to re-teach "how" to do proper takedowns becuase defending taedowns against a person who doesn't know how to do it doesn't work well (or creates a false sense of security).

Too true Thomas.

The thing is I am not particularly good at doing double legs or single legs myself! And yet I feel it is quite important to be good at defending them.

I can demonstrate them but it feels quite different when somebody who really knows what they are doing performs one!

I make sure that I teach good sprawling technique. I have also discovered some of the common errors many non-wrestlers use in defending the shot such as try to underhook a guy shooting a double (One needs rather to keep his opponent's head in the centre of your hips and provide a lot of heavy straight downward pressure on the head. This is supposed to be more high percentage and harder for the wrestler to transition into something else problematic for the defender.)

When I was coming up in hapkido, shooting doubles and singles were not something we did at all. Sometimes an unskilled tackle or a single leg finish that would take place off of a kick defense. I have had the good fortunate of watching a lot of good wrestling coaches with my son but I would have been using some less effective methods otherwise.

Defending throws was handled a lot better ... but then again we ourselves did plenty of throwing so the skills in defending naturally followed as well.

So what does one do when we are faced with serving the needs of our students for self defense situations which we were not traditionally taught?

Or how do we deal with defending against techniques in which no one in our training group is well skilled?

[Thomas]

So what does one do when we are faced with serving the needs of our students for self defense situations which we were not traditionally taught?

Or how do we deal with defending against techniques in which no one in our training group is well skilled?

Great points.

As an instructor, I feel a responsibility to at least be "aware" of other skillsets and I do my best to cross train or invite in people who can do those things. When I get guys who believe that they "can't" be taken down for example, I usually can take them down... and I make the statement that if I can do it at my limited level of experience, someone with more training will do it even quicker.

At the same time, I guess we sort of play the odds. We bet that anyone we encounter will NOT have a high level of skill in wrestling or strinking or weapons or whatever and that the basic skills we teach will be enough to ensure survival. AT the same time, I try to show my students what "couild" be out there as a threat, even if I am not that great at it.

Something that helps us is that we have a rotating cast of visotrs from otehr styles and all are up for a bit of sparring or training using their strong elements with us. It's always eye-opening!

[mateo]

I think many teacher's try to maintain the illusion of omnipotence. ( Not a problem that I've ever had personally! I'm just not fooling anybody! )

But in order to do so they avoid areas outside their expertise. So they will not allow a wrestler to use their wrestling on the mats etc. I've seen hapkido teachers roll their eyes when another teacher started teaching sprawl-to-submission on an opponent who was shooting a double or grabbing their hips from the front - despite the fact that the submission already exists in the hapkido curriculum. The eye rolling teacher didn't seem to have any more effective response to offer but seem to be taking the position that what he was seeing wasn't within his definition of hapkido.

But what is there to do when your training hasn't included this exact situation? To me 'scrambles' to create good position so that one can apply the jointlocks or chokes we have learned in the hapkido are wide open to interpretation and there is no position of disadvantage that we shouldn't really address.

In many arts which specialize in some aspect of fighting, eg judo, aikido, karate they can say "We don't do that in judo/aikido/karate." and that is valid within the parameters of their art/sport.

In hapkido with a self defense orientation I don't feel comfortable taking this position. I think we should prepare responses for any high percentage move and try to be effective in all fighting ranges. I do feel comfortable saying straight up to my students "This isn't an area in which I am particularly skilled in but this is how I would approach a response." or ""I wasn't taught this in hapkido but I know that judo players deal with this situation by doing this." etc.

It is easier for me to take this position as I don't make any claims to being 'a master' and so I don't have to defend that omnipotent position that many teachers place themselves in. Also not running a commercial dojang takes the pressure off as I really have nothing to lose in acknowledging personal limitations or the validity of outside approaches.

I am also not shy about saying "Jake over here has a pretty good half guard game from his BJJ training. Let's take a look at some of the half guard sweeps that a BJJer might use from this position." I'm all for using the talent in the room and that makes the student called upon to demonstrate feel great. The trick as a hapkido teacher is to look at that response through the prism of our hapkido training and think about how it works in a wide open game of self defense which allows striking and other responses illegal in many forms of sport fighting but which are viable in self defense situations.

I realize that my position will not be seen as valid to all hapkido-in. I'm just offering a perspective.

[mateo]

As an instructor, I feel a responsibility to at least be "aware" of other skillsets and I do my best to cross train or invite in people who can do those things. When I get guys who believe that they "can't" be taken down for example, I usually can take them down... and I make the statement that if I can do it at my limited level of experience, someone with more training will do it even quicker.

Yeah I've heard the same claims with the same results quite often. Even from some of my friends. Most of the time they just haven't been on the mats with the right guys.

At the same time, I guess we sort of play the odds. We bet that anyone we encounter will NOT have a high level of skill in wrestling or striking or weapons or whatever and that the basic skills we teach will be enough to ensure survival. AT the same time, I try to show my students what "could" be out there as a threat, even if I am not that great at it.

Something that helps us is that we have a rotating cast of visitors from other styles and all are up for a bit of sparring or training using their strong elements with us. It's always eye-opening!

All seem like reasonable ways of dealing with areas of weakness I think. Much better than pretending they aren't there, to be sure!

I know you are a humble guy Thomas but do you ever worry that bringing outside experts in will erode your authority in the dojang? That the students may think "If my teacher is so good then why does he have to call this guy in? Or perhaps they will like BJJ/Judo? whatever better than hapkido and leave the dojang?

I mention this because I suspect that it this kind of attitude that limits how much this is done in many dojangs.

[Thomas]

I know you are a humble guy Thomas but do you ever worry that bringing outside experts in will erode your authority in the dojang? That the students may think "If my teacher is so good then why does he have to call this guy in? Or perhaps they will like BJJ/Judo? whatever better than hapkido and leave the dojang?

I mention this because I suspect that it this kind of attitude that limits how much this is done in many dojangs.

No... I never worry. I think the benefits outweigh any potential problems.

Having people come in who are "experts" in a certain area gives us a more realistic way of training to deal with such skills. On the floor, I defer to that instructor who is teaching (I can add my two cents if needed) and usually offer myself up first to to get thrown, tapped, or hit! We can't learn to defend against such stuff unless we first see how it works. Students also need to see that if I go and cross train a bit and am able to come back and do something "pretty well" then someone who does this as a primary style is going to be soooooo much better. It goes back to the whole "If I can take you down... someone who actually grapples will be able to do it quicker... we need to work takedown defenses!"

As far as our students getting the desire to go and train elsewhere... I encourage them to cross train. If they decide to drop out from us and train there full time, it's OK - we then have a friend who can share down the road and we know that the person is not dedicated to our training for the long term. Better to know sooner than later...

[mateo]

Much as I expected, knowing you in the small way that I do, Thomas.

I know that many others on this forum cross train; Stuart, Ben, Bruce, Brian, Howard among them. I wonder how some of the others feel about introducing these methods in their hapkido classes or bringing outside experts in?

[Brian_Beach]

I'm for "the more looks the better"

If you are afraid that someone will leave then perhaps you aren't selling them what you are telling them. - e.x. I would be a poor choice for someone that wanted to do MMA - I would suggest going to a MMA gym. I'm not under the delusion that what I do is the right tool for every occasion nor the right tool for every person. But... I'm not feeding my family this way.

HKD imo is like an liberal arts undergrad program - a taste of everything. It is a great foundation for anything that you'd like to specialize in. For specialization you have to look outside. I'm am not trying to devalue HKD by that statement. Just pointing out that a Judo player is going to be better at Judo style throws. Anything that HKD does there is an art that does that specifically and specializes in that aspect. T

There is enough in HKD for a lifetime but it's not specialized. ( I am speaking to my experience - GM Ji's Lineage )

[Thomas]

I'm for "the more looks the better"

If you are afraid that someone will leave then perhaps you aren't selling them what you are telling them. - e.x. I would be a poor choice for someone that wanted to do MMA - I would suggest going to a MMA gym.

I agree 100% - in fact I think you make better friends by freely recommending people to other schools that are more appropriate. What comes around goes around, plus I think people appreciate the honesty.