Review: Seminar with Kim Yun Sang dojunim

[dskantz]

Hmm, interesting thought. Maybe also the reason why some of the masters from that era point to Choi as their teacher.

That was probley not the reson the reson was that Ji was arround the same age and that probely didnt fit with the idel of a master but Doju Choi was much older and that probley give more legamitet to the art the point out Ji as there master .

i maybe be wrong but i think that was the biggest reason .

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Master Skantz I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Lets not forget that Ji was in his teens when he started with Choi and started his own gym in his early twenties. Probably not long enough to even crasp the idea of hapki.

I think Ji realised this later and started the development of sin mu hapkido, lets put the starting point of this development at Ji Han Jae's time in prison.

So pre-prison Ji Han Jae hapkido style -> no hapki
post-prison Ji Han Jae Hapkido style -> probably has hapki

In that case it is no wonder that pre-prison-era students of Ji Han Jae started looking for the "it" that was missing.

Greetings

Can't be because I learned from Master Son and he was a 2nd generation who studied under one of Ji's original students before Sinmoo and when I studied with Ji later on it was the same thing more or less.

Ji claims because he was younger and a senior under Choi all his older students didn't respect him and claimed Choi as their teacher, rather than I young cocky guy.

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Stuart, I wonder if the "it" you and I are talking about are the same thing

I'm assuming the "it" is some sort of Hapki or principles you don't see in some peoples HKD.

[dskantz]

Master Skantz I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Lets not forget that Ji was in his teens when he started with Choi and started his own gym in his early twenties. Probably not long enough to even crasp the idea of hapki.

I think Ji realised this later and started the development of sin mu hapkido, lets put the starting point of this development at Ji Han Jae's time in prison.

So pre-prison Ji Han Jae hapkido style -> no hapki
post-prison Ji Han Jae Hapkido style -> probably has hapki

In that case it is no wonder that pre-prison-era students of Ji Han Jae started looking for the "it" that was missing.

Greetings

Can't be because I learned from Master Son and he was a 2nd generation who studied under one of Ji's original students before Sinmoo and when I studied with Ji later on it was the same thing more or less.

Ji claims because he was younger and a senior under Choi all his older students didn't respect him and claimed Choi as their teacher, rather than I young cocky guy.

I was talking aboute the fist generation under Ji not second or third the once that was in the same age as him

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Master Skantz I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Lets not forget that Ji was in his teens when he started with Choi and started his own gym in his early twenties. Probably not long enough to even crasp the idea of hapki.

I think Ji realised this later and started the development of sin mu hapkido, lets put the starting point of this development at Ji Han Jae's time in prison.

So pre-prison Ji Han Jae hapkido style -> no hapki
post-prison Ji Han Jae Hapkido style -> probably has hapki

In that case it is no wonder that pre-prison-era students of Ji Han Jae started looking for the "it" that was missing.

Greetings

Can't be because I learned from Master Son and he was a 2nd generation who studied under one of Ji's original students before Sinmoo and when I studied with Ji later on it was the same thing more or less.

Ji claims because he was younger and a senior under Choi all his older students didn't respect him and claimed Choi as their teacher, rather than I young cocky guy.

I was talking aboute the fist generation under Ji not second or third the once that was in the same age as him

Greetings,

My point was that he was younger then everyone he taught in the first generation, also from a lot of historical time lines none of his first generation masters studied very long with him before forming their own kwans.

Also GM Ji has commented that he's not happy with the level of HKD in Korea they're not doing the techniques right etc...

[Brian_Beach]

My point was that he was younger then everyone he taught in the first generation, also from a lot of historical time lines none of his first generation masters studied very long with him before forming their own kwans.

Not everyone - My GM is first generation, younger and was with GM Ji until the 80's.

[karronte]

Please don’t take offence on any of this it is no criticism to any one in particular. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to be live or decide what works and what dose not. Everyone believes that what they train in is the best, and that the other guy system might ne good to a lesser degree. That is why Hapkido is like Basking Robins Many different flavors. You pick Vanilla I pick rocky roads, its all cool and it is also cool if you want to dig in taste my flavor and tell me that you like hapkido more.

The It in hapkido every one looks for that it until they realize that it is so traditional that it dose not work in a real street fight. I have seen pre Sin Moo Hapkido, Sin Moo Hapkido and Choi hapkido from Lim and Rim, and hapkiyoosool from Chang as well as Hankido from many Yong In University graduates all are different. Same techniques different applications.

I had a moment in my life and training when I decided to look for the IT. I looked fro it in Aikido and latter in Iwama Aikido as I realized Aikikai was a water down form of Aikibudo, I looked for it in Hapkiyoosol (Chang style). Then I stop looking for that it and look for another it that I found in Dojunim that IT was philosophical in nature, not looking I found ( I will use Japanese terms as they are easer to explain) the Ashi sabaki (the IT) in sin moo. I had the Irrimi and Tenka from Iwama and from Myungs (WHF) hapkido, but neither had the Taesabaki of hapkido after finding the Ashi Sabaki in Sin Moo, found the Then I found the Te Sabaki and a the full picture of Taesabaki on Lim’s Hapkido. Still having seen Choi heritage from two of his best I find besides this small differences no major difference that would suggest Choi ever taught any AIKI focused material .

CHOI never called his art Hapkiyoosool everyone agrees with this across the board from JI to Kim To Lim and everyone in between. The term came to light latter in Choi’s life and almost near the time of his passing. Kim Dojunim himself explained that he developed his Aiki skills from the concepts given to him by Choi. Chang explains after explaining he was not a student of Choi that his techniques he called Hapkiyoosool and his style is hapkido, to reflect the difference of what he was doing from his interpretation of acquired knowledge from JI , Han B S and Myung J N . My sense is that Kim Doju brought his knowledge a level higher than his master ( Choi) and he is so humble that he won’t even acknowledge that fact.

In recent days I had the opportunity to see Choi doju performing techniques in some original full recordings of seminar he taught while in the DC metro area. I did not see anything that would lead me to believe that there was anything in his techniques besides simple Taijutsu (probably why he called it Yawara) rudimentary, simple, NASTY and to the point. Still I realize that people love going back to the long lost source and attributing it with legendary notions. Or it could be that late in his life he acquired the IT of Aiki , that from what I have seen is 90% mind control / manipulation and 10 % technique. Still not effective against a mind that can’t be manipulated. ( again I have not experience No touch from Kim maybe he is doing something different) but from the master from hum I have experienced the no touch in Japanese , Chinese and Korean MA … Well lets just say that if the mind of the UKE is not susceptible to the Tori’s (nage) it dose not work as well or dose not work at all.

To end my long day at work ranting Choi was a remarkable martial artist not because he taught a complex system but because he taught a simple one. His system was street effective and devastating in its straightforwardness. Me personally I’m trying to recreate that tradition and that simplicity as I have found after one to many deadly encounters that the more complex the less applicable in real life.

Take for example the taesabaki used in Aikido, hankido, and hapkiyoosol , it is base on the notion of uke coming momentum resembling the battle field techniques of Aikijujutsu. But once the coming momentum is taken away we find that the Tori needs to initiate the momentum, if the uke is not in harmony with the tori there is greater difficulty of implementation, in some cases as some of the Yon In Hankido masters I have meet have found out, if the uke (Steve, Tony, Milan) decide not to move there is simply NOT MOVING THEM. Thus the technique application of has it efficacy and its place the battlefield situation, an opponent coming at you or trying to rush you. It dose not have the same effect when it finds it self facing a static or semi static opponent. Same way that if some one is rushing me coming at me or I am in a battle field the more linear back forth, small stepping or small side stepping application will be less effective against such attack. All in all I guess each applications have their place, but some are more plausible that others.

[Klaas Barends]

YongIn Univ-style hankido is called yongmudo these days, and it is not the same as the hankido of Myung Jae-nam.
Not to say that one is better than the other, just pointing out that these are different. Yongmudo is pretty much YongIn Univ-style hapkido. Hankido is Myung Jae-nam's mix of hapkido and aikido techniques (I am generalizing here).

The street effectiveness of techniques is usually not in the techniques, but in the way the teacher teaches them.

[Brian_Beach]

Take for example the taesabaki used in Aikido, hankido, and hapkiyoosol , it is base on the notion of uke coming momentum resembling the battle field techniques of Aikijujutsu. But once the coming momentum is taken away we find that the Tori needs to initiate the momentum, if the uke is not in harmony with the tori there is greater difficulty of implementation, in some cases as some of the Yon In Hankido masters I have meet have found out, if the uke (Steve, Tony, Milan) decide not to move there is simply NOT MOVING THEM. Thus the technique application of has it efficacy and its place the battlefield situation, an opponent coming at you or trying to rush you. It dose not have the same effect when it finds it self facing a static or semi static opponent. Same way that if some one is rushing me coming at me or I am in a battle field the more linear back forth, small stepping or small side stepping application will be less effective against such attack. All in all I guess each applications have their place, but some are more plausible that others.

I may be misunderstanding your point but...If the uke doesn't move then you move - no? Isn't the point to connect their structure to yours so when you move they move. There is inherent weak points to our bipedal nature, "the third leg" that we exploit whether static or dynamic. If there is no movement you create the movement. Sometime it's through atemi Point being to cover the weakness you have to move or you will be moved

[Klaas Barends]

Third leg? Are we talking Iron Penis here?

[Brian_Beach]

I can only speak for myself

[Bruce W Sims]

".....The street effectiveness of techniques is usually not in the techniques, but in the way the teacher teaches them..."

I think a classic case of this can be seen in the KWON BUP material. The methods that make up the KWON BUP can be seen in TAIZU Long Fist as well as CHEN TCC. The methods are the same but the execution is very different. In like manner, I have seen the CANNONFIST form of CHEN TCC done as a slow-moving conditioning form and as a rather dynamic (and violent) combat form. Pushed yet farther, the same material that makes up CHEN TCC was later used to produce YANG TCC whose focus was only physical culture from its inception to only just recently.

The teacher sets the focus and the priorities and the student finds the teacher whose priorities help to produce the end result that the student wishes to become. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[karronte]

YongIn Univ-style hankido is called yongmudo these days, and it is not the same as the hankido of Myung Jae-nam.
Not to say that one is better than the other, just pointing out that these are different. Yongmudo is pretty much YongIn Univ-style hapkido. Hankido is Myung Jae-nam's mix of hapkido and aikido techniques (I am generalizing here).

The street effectiveness of techniques is usually not in the techniques, but in the way the teacher teaches them.

Dude you are scaring me with this tripod thing.... but you know what they say about black guys and guys that do hapkido.
Not to get in a discussion of who knows more or what is what, but I am very familiar with youngmoodo as young in graduates at our dojangs were in college when the university was developing the system. Not sure what they might be doing now days but the guys I had the pleasure of training with make specific separations between youngmoodo and hankido and hapkido. One of our masters trained all his pre college live with Hwang, Duk Kyu (Ji first student) his college years in Hankido and outside of college (weekends) visited Junki Kwan. After graduating he trained with Mas Oyama sensei until around 1993 or 94 and also trained in Aikido while in Japan he also trained in Aikido. He actually prefers Kiokushinkai to hapkido. He laugh at the yoongmoodo curriculum that the new and younger young in graduates talk so highly about.

BTW As i see it the street effectiveness of the technique is not in the way the teacher teaches or the technique it self , but in the fighting heart of the person teaching it

[karronte]

Take for example the taesabaki used in Aikido, hankido, and hapkiyoosol , it is base on the notion of uke coming momentum resembling the battle field techniques of Aikijujutsu. But once the coming momentum is taken away we find that the Tori needs to initiate the momentum, if the uke is not in harmony with the tori there is greater difficulty of implementation, in some cases as some of the Yon In Hankido masters I have meet have found out, if the uke (Steve, Tony, Milan) decide not to move there is simply NOT MOVING THEM. Thus the technique application of has it efficacy and its place the battlefield situation, an opponent coming at you or trying to rush you. It dose not have the same effect when it finds it self facing a static or semi static opponent. Same way that if some one is rushing me coming at me or I am in a battle field the more linear back forth, small stepping or small side stepping application will be less effective against such attack. All in all I guess each applications have their place, but some are more plausible that others.

I may be misunderstanding your point but...If the uke doesn't move then you move - no? Isn't the point to connect their structure to yours so when you move they move. There is inherent weak points to our bipedal nature, "the third leg" that we exploit whether static or dynamic. If there is no movement you create the movement. Sometime it's through atemi Point being to cover the weakness you have to move or you will be moved

Is not about moving or not moving or causing move or not causing movement is about the way movement is initiated , deflected or redirected. Triangles or angles vs ½ moons, vs pivoting, vs side stepping, vs big circles or open circles. Not sure how to explain this in writing but is a very simple notion.

[Brian_Beach]

I'll take your word for it - we'll table it 'till next time I can make it out.

It was the

"if the uke (Steve, Tony, Milan) decide not to move there is simply NOT MOVING THEM"

- part that was hanging me up. If they don't move you move to a position that is advantageous to you. If they still don't move to recover or guard etc, you exploit it. How that manifests is open to or dependent on the system. A disconnected uke is one that you hit

[karronte]

They will move if the technique is correctly implemented, I was making reference specifically to aiki circular techniques all of the people master level that have visited us and tried to move them with this type of techniques have not been able to, thus far. But this 3 guys are not human is beyond me why they even bothered training in hapkido.