Different kinds of doboks for different kinds of HKD?

[mateo]

A colleague of mine who's a MA teacher used to tell me stories of students who couldn't perform while in street clothes. Something about putting on a uniform and training strictly in a Dojo was all they were used to. As odd as that may sound I believe there's truth to it.

For me, personally, I think the most challenging things are the shoes. Pivoting and bouncing feel WAY different depending upon the kind of tread and the weight of the shoes.

For me, rashguards/t-shirts and shorts are easier to perform in than dobok and, being Canadian, and working in an office/classroom environment, I rarely find myself outfitted in this way in my daily life. That being said, I can see why such an outfit would be practical in Sao Paulo or Florida.

Heavy coat and boots with snow on the ground are going to be the more challenging factors which I often deal with. There are lots of environmental conditions where ANY kind of kick may put you at risk in a scuffle. The weight of heavy shoes also make the timing of your kicks much different. That having been said I know military guys who much prefer to kick with their boots on and have adapted their fighting techniques to suit their gear.

In the past we have done lots of training out of doors in all kinds of weather so I am happy that I know my limitations under such conditions.

[Bruce W Sims]

"There's often a big disconnect between reality and Dojang training few rarely get past."

The only disconnect that I have become aware of over the years is the difference in individual's motivation for training and their degree of dedication. The school does not make the artist. Rather, the artist shapes the school. People who are drawn to the full-contact training of KYOKUSHIN Karate have a range of motives which may vary significantly from those of the local Aikido class. Yet, there are very physical schools of Aikido (See: Shioda) and very non-competitive KYOKUSHIN schools.

I think it is a poor characterization of "between reality and dojang" as though some great divide separates the dojang away from realistic training. What I have found, in many cases, is that most people who cry out for more and more realism in their training suddenly find themselves being demanded of conditioning, drills and techniques of which they want no real part.

Each semester I am presented with a complete range of college age students. Most have no clue of what they are looking for or expect. Part of my job is to help them discover their "true" Selves using the Hapkido arts as a medium. Some leave the class as clueless as when they came in. Yet, some discover that they have been kidding themselves concerning what they are about, and maybe thats a service to them. I don't know for sure but I certainly hope so.

As far as your group of people, Stuart, maybe it would be more accurate to say that your group of folks like to take a more physical approach and don't mind moderate sweat and discomfort. OTOH the guy down the road may have a very different group of people with different motives, and, yes, different illusions. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Stuart Rosenberg]

A colleague of mine who's a MA teacher used to tell me stories of students who couldn't perform while in street clothes. Something about putting on a uniform and training strictly in a Dojo was all they were used to. As odd as that may sound I believe there's truth to it.

For me, personally, I think the most challenging things are the shoes. Pivoting and bouncing feel WAY different depending upon the kind of tread and the weight of the shoes.

For me, rashguards/t-shirts and shorts are easier to perform in than dobok and, being Canadian, and working in an office/classroom environment, I rarely find myself outfitted in this way in my daily life. That being said, I can see why such an outfit would be practical in Sao Paulo or Florida.

Heavy coat and boots with snow on the ground are going to be the more challenging factors which I often deal with. There are lots of environmental conditions where ANY kind of kick may put you at risk in a scuffle. The weight of heavy shoes also make the timing of your kicks much different. That having been said I know military guys who much prefer to kick with their boots on and have adapted their fighting techniques to suit their gear.

In the past we have done lots of training out of doors in all kinds of weather so I am happy that I know my limitations under such conditions.

In many of my firearms training classes we pressure test our skills under strict timed drills and senarios. We often discover our gear didn't work the way we thought it would etc... and really get to know how to tweak what works and what doesn't. It's a real surprise to see what happens in real life drills vs. what people tell themselves will happen or were told would happen. Open mindedness and the ability to immediately throw out what fails you is the first rule of a true survivor.

Trad MA people would rather protect a tradition then themselves it seems. I try to bring some reality to HKD training. Getting jumped in the parking lot, rolling in street clothes can tell you a lot about what you think you can do or might happen in a real enviornment vs. the Dojang. Some Dojang tech don't belong in the street it's that simple and a good Instructor should know the difference but most don't because they leave out reality training.

I realize as Bruce said not all people find their way to MA for the same reasons to each his own, for me MA is first and foremost for SD.

Sorry if that sounded like a rant.

[Bruce W Sims]

This may be the crux of our differences, Stuart; that of context. A lot of time politicians are accused of saying this or that, and they often complain that their comments were "taken out of context". I think the same things can be applied here.

If a person states that they are practicing a Korean martial art, that practice takes place within a particular context. The same goes for any other practice from Indonesian village to a Boxing gym in Philly. The context in which a technique is studied is what makes the technique a part of this or that culture. Strip away the context and you still have the technique but it may be unfair to represent it as coming from a particular country or culture.
Around the World people recognize this and there are many safe-guards for it. At Wimbleton it is not allowed to participate without the correct uniform. Those white shorts are part of what makes Wimbleton "Wimbleton". Jockies at the "Triple Crown" are regulated concerning what they can wear in the events. Race car drivers are regulated about what they can wear. If a person represents that they practice a MA of a particular country it follows that they will submit to the dress requirements of that practice. Now, if people want to take that material and do their own thing, thats fine. However, absent context, the material then becomes an ad hoc mix of techniques and needs to be represented as such. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Stuart Rosenberg]

I agree and you basically identified my personal struggles with Trad MA settings. The balance between real life and trad MA.
The same problem occurs for me in religion, old school thought and trad. Vs. Modern thought.

The truth is I don't think there's one obsolute but a balance and staying true to the essense of HKD and the balance keeping it relavent. That's where all the fun is.

Typing from black berry not easy.

[Brian_Beach]

If a person represents that they practice a MA of a particular country it follows that they will submit to the dress requirements of that practice. Now, if people want to take that material and do their own thing, thats fine. However, absent context, the material then becomes an ad hoc mix of techniques and needs to be represented as such. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

So what do call someone in Korea doing Hapkido in street clothes?

[Stuart Rosenberg]

If a person represents that they practice a MA of a particular country it follows that they will submit to the dress requirements of that practice. Now, if people want to take that material and do their own thing, thats fine. However, absent context, the material then becomes an ad hoc mix of techniques and needs to be represented as such. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

So what do call someone in Korea doing Hapkido in street clothes?

Good one, but Bruce will say he's allowed because he's Korean and has some sort of national or cultural authority.

[Bruce W Sims]

One of the nice things about being 60 is that one stops looking to others for anything resembling "authority" or permission.

As I was counseled a while back, most of the people who I have been advised to turn to for the typical "OK" or nod weren't around when I could have really used help. Ergo: I owe them nothing in the way of asking for their kind imprimatur.

[Brian_Beach]

I don't think anyone thinks that you need to get a stamp of approval.

I was addressing your notion that if you are going to "do" a Korean art you have to dress like a Korean ( or at least a Korean dressed in a Japanese fashion ) or you aren't doing the art.

It seems silly to me to say that a Korean practicing a Korean art isn't doing it "right" if they aren't in a Dobok.

Or are you saying as westerners we have to "prove" we are committed to "Korean Culture" by wearing the right clothes?

Seems just as arbitrary as any other touchstone - i.e. "you aren't doing it like I do it "

[mateo]

I don't know. Dobok, dogi.

They are pretty practical. Don't rip.

Most people wear clothes in the 'real world'. If you shed the jacket and train at times in t-shirt you get used to those conditions and understand the need not rely too much on jacket 'grips'.

Philosophically, wearing a uniform has a meaning which is preferrable to NOT having any meaning to me.

Far fewer skin problems in arts that wear uniforms than in wrestling, no-gi grappling and MMA.

I don't see much downside in holding on to the training clothes. Do they have to be Korean or Japanese? I guess not. But good ones already exist there. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Bruce W Sims]

I don't think anyone thinks that you need to get a stamp of approval.

I was addressing your notion that if you are going to "do" a Korean art you have to dress like a Korean ( or at least a Korean dressed in a Japanese fashion ) or you aren't doing the art.

It seems silly to me to say that a Korean practicing a Korean art isn't doing it "right" if they aren't in a Dobok.

Or are you saying as westerners we have to "prove" we are committed to "Korean Culture" by wearing the right clothes?

Seems just as arbitrary as any other touchstone - i.e. "you aren't doing it like I do it "

Mmmm..... not sure, Brian, but I think you are reading something into what I wrote, but I can't quite tell. Maybe its a matter of degree.

What I was working to convey is that an art which is attributed to a particular culture needs (IMHO) to be practiced and promoted within the context of that culture. Sure, some of the more "flexible" things are going to get "bent" (as it were). We have all seen the clips of GM-s doing demo-s in the shirt and tie (sans the jacket) and thats all well and good. There is a point at which one needs to draw a line, though. Now, after 20+ years can I tell you exactly where that line is? Actually, I'm not sure. And the variances in why people train (say, my "cultural artifact preservation" VS Stuart's SD motives) don't make the job any easier. As I write this, though, I am thinking of KIM Yun Sang DJN taking time to ask me how I wanted to be addressed by him (IE. "nephew" or "brother") in our conversations. Here in the US such a bit would probably not even come up, but in Korea its a very important bit. I think these contextual bits are what make it possible to say that one is practicing a "Korean" art rather than just practicing techniques taken FROM a Korean art. Does this make sense? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Brian_Beach]

Matt,

I agree totally with the practicality of dobok (gi) - Training in T-shirts isn't practical every session, they don't hold up.

The uniform does help me get into the mindset to train but it's not a necessity. Along with the differences of the actual clothing that you and Stuart pointed out ( e.x. kicking in boots, tighter pants) I think that's what Stuart was implying (maybe) that there are some that can't "flip the switch" without the trappings. I.E. not realizing that it is the same "you" with the same skills - regardless of the external factors.

I agree that is something to be overcome if necessary. You don't know if it's necessary or not unless you try it

[Brian_Beach]

Mmmm..... not sure, Brian, but I think you are reading something into what I wrote, but I can't quite tell. Maybe its a matter of degree.

What I was working to convey is that an art which is attributed to a particular culture needs (IMHO) to be practiced and promoted within the context of that culture. Sure, some of the more "flexible" things are going to get "bent" (as it were). We have all seen the clips of GM-s doing demo-s in the shirt and tie (sans the jacket) and thats all well and good. There is a point at which one needs to draw a line, though. Now, after 20+ years can I tell you exactly where that line is? Actually, I'm not sure. And the variances in why people train (say, my "cultural artifact preservation" VS Stuart's SD motives) don't make the job any easier. As I write this, though, I am thinking of KIM Yun Sang DJN taking time to ask me how I wanted to be addressed by him (IE. "nephew" or "brother") in our conversations. Here in the US such a bit would probably not even come up, but in Korea its a very important bit. I think these contextual bits are what make it possible to say that one is practicing a "Korean" art rather than just practicing techniques taken FROM a Korean art. Does this make sense? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Yes - originally it sounded like you were saying that without the proper uniform you aren't practicing Hapkido.

I think that any art that is exported is going to stamped with the culture that it inhabits. Just as Choi's art underwent the transformation from Japanese art to Korean, any eastern art is going to be transformed by the fact that is it practiced in the west. The amount of cultural touchstones are going to vary due to importance each place on it.

[mateo]

Along with the differences of the actual clothing that you and Stuart pointed out ( e.x. kicking in boots, tighter pants) I think that's what Stuart was implying (maybe) that there are some that can't "flip the switch" without the trappings. I.E. not realizing that it is the same "you" with the same skills - regardless of the external factors.

I agree that is something to be overcome if necessary. You don't know if it's necessary or not unless you try it

Oh, I agree that we should take ourselves into different environments, different clothing, different terrain, and think about how changes in environmental factors effect our performance, to be sure. Eg. Put on some hiking boots and try to slide into your jab or sliding sidekick or pivot with your left hook and you are definitely going to find some performance differences.

But I also think that my homebase which includes training in a dobok/dogi is a good thing to maintain also. It has worked out pretty well for quite a while.

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Thank You Brian & Matt,

You guys got it, not I would think you wouldn't but many just don't. To often people are caught up in the trappings of a false notion of tradition and don't know how to critically look at the facts.

Real tradition was the battle field or street not the Dojang. Skills of any fighting arts were tested, analyzed and tweaked after a battle and when skill X failed someone died or was injured. The survivors would try to figure out what went wrong and try to adjust. Today this doesn't really happen outside the modern military, street gangs, or prison. Not to mention to a much lesser degree in MMA sports.

We believe what we were told by some alleged MA teacher who himself probably never tested the material in real life. Where does that leave most of us in the end, but some type of hero worship or system worship that in fact maybe a pile of useless techniques taught in a useless manor, who knows?

My only real point is bring as much reality to your training as possible and also trains in a way that would mimic the environment you find yourself in everyday life. Most of all don't be afraid to question the skills and the application of the skills you learn.