Jointlocking Freestyle Practise

[mateo]

Because it seems that I could get no one to express interest in `sacrifice throw` thread, perhaps this might strike more of a chord with people on the forum.

Recently we had people talking about how to `liven up`their joint locking practise with more resistance. Here we have an example of a `freestyle joint locking`approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROZBJyq9 ... re=related

While many hapkido dojangs employ free-fighting practise, some more than others, we often see this kind of sparring employing primarily striking and throwing and not much joint locking material. There are safety considerations, of course. But I think many also find many of the techniques hard to apply `on the fly`.

Conversely, while in many aikido schools the `randori`or free-form practise doesn`t approach the level of realism in the area of striking that we can see in some hapkido dojangs, aikidoka often have a part of each class devoted to concentrating on how to apply the core joint locks and throwing techniques in an unprearranged situation.

Traditional Daito-ryu, has no free practise as it proceeds in the traditional manner of teaching through two-man prearranged kata. However they do have exercises designed to teach one what technique to apply when grabbed and pulled, as opposed to say grabbed and pushed and so forth to try to bridge that gap.

So the question is; what are you doing to ensure that your practise fosters good, practical instinctive responses when you attacked in an unrehearsed way?

[JangMuWonSD1]

Hi Matt,

While training in Hapkido we allowed everything but joint locks in actual full force sparring. We trained all techniques including joint locks in a free form manner we called "free bees". During free bees the attacker would attack randomly with whatever they wanted and you would deal with it in what ever way you wanted. Although the attacks were a one shot deal with no follow up it fostered a good response to varying attacks.

In Daito Ryu my teacher makes us randori with the rule that you must use aikijujutsu or straight aiki techniques only, so no straight jujutsu techniques allowed. It's not so bad when grabbed but when randomly punched trying to stay soft and connect to your opponent at least for me borders on the impossible.

In BJJ full force randori is always part of class but with the limitation of no striking. Twice we have done slap grappling which allowed one person to slap the other during randori to illustrate to us where we are vulnerable. I wished we would incorporate a lot more slap grappling but unfortunately it hampers training for competitions which seems to always be the focus.

[Brian_Beach]

I like this approach, also the fluidity it great. This is basically randori aikido style rather than a judo approach. There are predefined roles ( tori / uke) like AKD as opposed to Judo where both are trying to better the other.

I like the bull in the ring drill which fits with the approach seen here. One man in the middle and a ring of attackers. Based on the experience of the participant the attacks and the defenses can be limited accordantly.

One use of this drill I like is after doing partner exercise of say 3-5 techniques everyone gets used to receiving and doing the technique. Limit the interaction to those techniques and take turns being the bull.

It also exposes people to different body types in rapid succession. Keeps people from falling into a ruts that can come with partner practice ( anticipating, over compliance, inappropriate resistance etc) You can work on reaction time having the instructor calling people out random to attack. If you do it fast enough can be a cardiovascular workout as well.

[mateo]

Hey Chris,

Hi Matt,
While training in Hapkido we allowed everything but joint locks in actual full force sparring.

So do you think that joint-locks are too dangerous to apply in sparring?

You have trained in some situations which allow for them and some which did not.

To me, it not the attempt to apply many joint-locks in sparring that is the problem it is just the speed at which we get to the end of the technique, which is the same as on the ground. If I move into a standing joint-lock and successfully trap the limb where I could finish, I would count that as a success without having to finish.

We trained all techniques including joint locks in a free form manner we called "free bees". During free bees the attacker would attack randomly with whatever they wanted and you would deal with it in what ever way you wanted. Although the attacks were a one shot deal with no follow up it fostered a good response to varying attacks.

I think that this is typical to many aikido schools as well. I think it is a good combination with the other training methods.

In Daito Ryu my teacher makes us randori with the rule that you must use aikijujutsu or straight aiki techniques only, so no straight jujutsu techniques allowed. It's not so bad when grabbed but when randomly punched trying to stay soft and connect to your opponent at least for me borders on the impossible.

Although traditionally Daito-ryu was not taught with randori (nor were most classical Japanese martial arts), there is no reason that new training methods shouldn't have been adopted over time. Sounds good to me.

What do mean by the use of the term "aikijujutsu techniques" here? I understand using techniques which employ 'aiki' and with using techniques which do not, but in a 'practical sense' how do you define 'aikijujutsu' techniques. I know how some people apply this term but I just want to be clear how we are using the terms here.

In BJJ full force randori is always part of class but with the limitation of no striking. Twice we have done slap grappling which allowed one person to slap the other during randori to illustrate to us where we are vulnerable. I wished we would incorporate a lot more slap grappling but unfortunately it hampers training for competitions which seems to always be the focus.

So we can see that other arts have problems in injecting realism into training. But within its range BJJ makes a great allowance for techniques. Far greater than wrestling or judo for example.

[JangMuWonSD1]

Hi Matt,

To clarify my statement about Daito Ryu as I am learning it:

Aiki-jujutsu techniques are those that use aiki to enter in a joint locking type technique which then is used to throw or pin, so aiki to joint lock to throw/pin.

Aiki techniques skip the joint lock and go straight to a throw/pin.

Daito Ryu jujutsu still uses kuzushi but not aikiage or aikisage. Although when we do straight jujutsu techniques I always ask explicitly "So no aiki" and the answer is always "no but you could".
So my understanding here is that the straight jujutsu techniques do not "Rely" on aiki but you can always add it.

[Stuart Rosenberg]

I like the video and the people seem talented but the finishes seem to be too much like BJJ/MMA finishing on the ground (being vulnerable to secondary attacks) vs. street finishes that would allow you to fight a second person or run away.

[mateo]

I like the video and the people seem talented but the finishes seem to be too much like BJJ/MMA finishing on the ground (being vulnerable to secondary attacks) vs. street finishes that would allow you to fight a second person or run away.

I see what you are saying in that there was a lot of going for 'mount' or on the ground armbars. One should keep in mind that judo is one of the 4 primary arts which comprise the Yoseikan system (aikido, judo, karate and Katori Shinto-ryu). The first few exchanges ended with the fellow doing jointlocks from the feet, though. I suppose the responses also confirm the fact that these fellows have some degree of groundwork ability.

In our school we have a preference for kicking the downed opponent. This doesn't always 'play' well with the North American public who I think instinctive perceive that as dirty fighting even though we are a self defense system.

To each his own.