International Seminar 21st October

[chongmookwan]

If I am not mistaken a big international seminar took place under the guidance of DJN Kim in Korea. From the 14th of October until the 21st.

Does anyone of the attendees want to share some of his/her experiences??

Their homepage (http://www.hapkiyusul.com/) isn't really up-to-date with the events (you can still register for it). At least the English section isn't. There are some pictures in the Korean version.

I thought some of our forum-members were planning to attend it. Maybe they can tell us more about it.

[Barrie Restall]

Since you asked I'll try to give a run down on the event.

The main purpose was to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the passing of Choi Yong Sul, with Hapkiyusul training as an added benefit for visitors. The festival was held at Seo Dae Mountain Resort near GuemSan.

A group of about 28 visitors from Australia, Holland, USA, Canada, Germany and Italy joined about 30 active Korean BB members of the Yong Sul Kwan, as well as 20 odd junior members, at an opening ceremony on Saturday 13th. Doju Kim welcomed all and outlined the program and his expectations. There were speeches, displays by the junior and senior members, and musical recitals on traditional instruments.

Sunday the 14th saw about 100 people gather at Choi Yong Sul's graveside for a very moving tribute to him. The ceremony was attended by 5 of Choi's 6 daughters (the 3rd eldest couldnt make it), the first time they had been together at the graveside since their father died. They were very emotional and were obviously affected by the presence of the "foreigners" who had gathered to honour their father. Several speeches were made by Doju Kim, the eldest daughter and a spokesperson for the visitors.

Training began in earnest on Monday morning at 6 am, again at 6 pm and everyday thereafter. Doju KIm demonstrated the high levels of the art and how they followed progressivley from the basic techniques, which were practiced under the guidance of Doju Kim and the Korean BBs. During the course of the training Doju Kim continued to amaze the visitors with mind boggling demonstrations of his "no touch" techniques. He graded several students who had been training in Hapkiyusul for some time; one successful BB grading was held and two red belts, a blue belt and two yellow belts were awarded to visitors.

As is usual in the Yong Sul Kwan, Doju Kim invited visitors to "show their technique" against strong resistance from his seniors. As is also usual, the visitors failed to make any of their techniques work. Doju Kim then explained why this was and proceeded to show how their techniques could be made to work effectively, using those he had seen attempted. This afforded the visitors an insight into their art that they had been unaware of.

Between training on the Tuesday and Thursday, visitors took two local tours, one to Cheongnamdae, the Munui cultural village and the Daecheong dam, and another to Daedunsan where many weary visitors scaled the peak to enjoy the scenery. This is one of Korea's eight scenic wonders.

A final training session on the Friday evening was marked again by speeches from Doju Kim and the visitors, and the distribution of certificates of appreciation. This was followed by a barbecue farewell.

In between the official ceremonies and training session, the visitors were able to visit the Korean Hapkido Hapkiyusul Headquarters in Guemsan, the history of which was featured in the November issue of the TKD Times. Several delegates also visited Doju Kim's private office to view his collection of memoribilia of Choi Yong Sul, including the attendance records and the photographic and written records of Choi Yong Sul's art.

Free time was mainly spent practicing what had been learnt, discussing various aspects of the Hapkido arts, and just making new friends or comparing bruises and lost skin.

All the visitors expressed amazement and satisfaction with their experience in Guemsan.

Doju KIm's hapkiyusul is little known outside of Korea, but now there is one dojang in Holland and two in Australia (5 Australians have reached BB grade in Hapkiyusul).

Thats about all I can think of at the moment, I am still falling asleep from a combination of jet lag and fatigue! If someone tells me how to post photos, and if anyone is interested I'll be happy to give it a go.

Kind regards,

Barrie Restall









[]

[chongmookwan]

Hi Barrie,

thanks for sharing the info.

I am sure you guys had a great time in Korea.

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Greetings

........As is usual in the Yong Sul Kwan, Doju Kim invited visitors to "show their technique" against strong resistance from his seniors. As is also usual, the visitors failed to make any of their techniques work. Doju Kim then explained why this was and proceeded to show how their techniques could be made to work effectively, using those he had seen attempted. This afforded the visitors an insight into their art that they had been unaware of.............

What kind of things did GM Kim explain regarding this problem???

[chongmookwan]

Probably something like:

-Don't rely on physical power.
-Relax your body. (especially your shoulders)
-Move from your danjun.
-Use your whole body in the technique.

Only I would expect a person like GM Kim to understand these kind of things on a much higher level than I do. And I believe he does.

[Ben_Smith]

During the course of the training Doju Kim continued to amaze the visitors with mind boggling demonstrations of his "no touch" techniques.

Did he perform this on anyone other than his normal students?

[Barrie Restall]

Klaas has kindly put up some photos, so here are some captions.
1. Students at the opening ceremony
2. Australian delegates at the closing ceremony (5 Australian BBs with Doju Kim in front row)
3. All delegates in new doboks
4. Delegates at opening ceremony
.

Stuart,

Not easy to answer. All of the things Klaas listed, which might be called basic principles or fundementals, plus others. Doju Kim's main point is that those who fail to execute their techniques lack a proper foundation in these principles. He then demonstrates how application of the principles renders the techniques effective. The system he teaches is a structured training in these principles.

It generally takes about a week or more of daily training before visitors put aside what they have learnt and begin to pay close attention to what is going on. The training structure results in a gradual strengthening of body and mind (not without some pain!) as well as instilling the "fundementals" in the muscle memory. Constant and regular practice reveals more and more as time goes by. It is best to go and experience this, talking about it is a bit pointless.

Bong soo,

Doju Kim only uses a few senior students as crash dummies for his higher level stuff. This is because they need a certain level of body and mind strength to withstand what he does. However the demos are not rehearsed and the dummies do not know what is going to happen to them. Doju Kim often plays tricks, doing feints and dummy moves before applying the real thing. Talking to the dummies is very interesting, by and large they havent a clue what is going on.

He has at times given some "mild" application to more jumior students, one of whom described it as like having a hand inside him grabbing his heart.

Not much point talking about this, even those who witness it have doubts and wonder if they have seen what they saw. Go see for your self and draw your own conclusions.

Doju Kim's art has to be practiced regularly and diligently for any benefit and insights to occur; without this committment nothing much happens. Doju Kim selects the teachers and they must adhere to his ethical code and continue daily training themselves. One of his conditions is that the art is not commercialised, another that politics be avoided. Its not for everyone.

Kind regards,

Barrie Restall

[Bruce W Sims]

".....Doju Kim's art has to be practiced regularly and diligently for any benefit and insights to occur; without this committment nothing much happens. Doju Kim selects the teachers and they must adhere to his ethical code and continue daily training themselves. One of his conditions is that the art is not commercialised, another that politics be avoided. Its not for everyone. ...."

Yeah, I'd say by those standards it pretty much rules out about 80% of the current crop of Hapkido practitioners--- or at least those that purport to pass for practitioners. I'd love to see his tradition preserved and even promoted, but not at the expense of having every Tom, Dick and Harry making up his own rules as he goes along. If it comes that, I'd just as soon that Dojunim keeps it as select as he cares to, and God bless him for it.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[chongmookwan]

Say Bruce, didn't you plan on attending the event as well??

How was your experience?

[Bruce W Sims]

I never made it.

Unfortunately I simply was not able to pull together the finances in order to pull it off. Originally I had hoped that the Intensive I had planned in August would have helped finance getting there. Instead, the event actually incurred additional bills that pulled me down farther. Too bad really, since this anniversary was certainly a historical event.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bluecrab]

...

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Hi Barrie, thanks for the account of the anniversary event.

With respect to the following response to Stuarts' question about visitors not being able to execute their techniques on DJN Kim's students...

...Not easy to answer. All of the things Klaas listed, which might be called basic principles or fundementals, plus others. Doju Kim's main point is that those who fail to execute their techniques lack a proper foundation in these principles. He then demonstrates how application of the principles renders the techniques effective. The system he teaches is a structured training in these principles.

Just another question... how much do his basic principles and fundamentals emphasize applying aiki / hapki at the initiation of his techniques? Is this central to his curriculum?

Just trying to get a feel for how his Hapkiyusul compares to a couple of other arts. Thanks.

Greetings

That's what I was implying thanks Howard.

Both my teachers Son and Ji taught us how to do the technique with resistance. With that said I do believe there are people strong enough that the skills skills won't work with out striking or someother distraction first!

[Bluecrab]

...

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Both my teachers Son and Ji taught us how to do the technique with resistance. With that said I do believe there are people strong enough that the skills skills won't work with out striking or someother distraction first!

Hi Stuart,

On the subject of using aiki / hapki on big, strong men... at the recent Kondo Daito-ryu seminar I attended, a guy came on Sunday who was an absolute behemoth. He was about 6'5", over 300 lbs, very muscular, shaved head and tatoos all over the place. He's been training in a style of traditional Karate for about 15 years and, from what I heard from a few of his friends at the seminar, has outstanding breaking technique. He was a very nice, friendly guy, but he looked truly intimidating.

At one point during the Sunday seminar, Kondo was called over to demonstrate aiki on this guy. A group formed around them, curious to see if it would work.

It worked. Kondo took the guy's balance with aiki techniques several times, and without striking him. He had him "floating" on his toes, with his breath sealed... classic signs of somebody having aiki applied to them.

Of course, Kondo, like Kim, is on a different level from the rest of us mere mortals.

Greetings,

Like you said we're just mortals!

Only a few weeks ago me and Master Son were testing each other's or more like him testing me on lapel grabs when gripped full strenght.

Both of us have a good clue on what it takes to break balance and take the arm, however at the same time we both understand how to move even so slightly to counter the effects of the off balance.

So as I tried my techs. on him he could adust his balance and make it near impossible for me to be successful.

I will assume that this Karate man was not familar with any "Aiki" and was a sitting duck in a sense so I guess the average strong man wont know what hit him.

Against another good Aiki man won't be that easy unless he complies.

Thoughts???

[chongmookwan]

Actually, the stronger the other person is, the easier it is to apply aiki.

The more force your opponent puts into the attack, the more force for you there is to use against him.

The 'softer' your opponent stays, the harder it is to find the little power that is there and use it.

[Barrie Restall]

Hi Howard,

I am not sure I am qualified to answer your question as I am not sure what you mean by aiki etc. If you want to compare styles it is best to experience them first hand. Rick Fine would be better placed to help you than me as he spent some time with Shin Hoon when the latter visited USA.

That said there are certainly things that are done in sequence to control the body before any particular technique is executed. I wouldnt finger any particular thing just the sequence. Not sure if this is the "core" of the curriculum. The structured training results in progressive development of several things including what might be called "core" strength, incredible power, without obvious muscular development or indeed any other overt indicator, and the ability to focus that power in an instant. The resistance the seniors can apply has to be experienced to be believed. Some very senior daito-ryu people have been unable to apply their "aiki" against this.

The hand and foot strikes practiced each lesson are not used or combined with the SD techniques until the higher levels. Until then they serve as "conditioners", an inportant cog in the wheel.

Doju Kim makes the point that some of the Hapkido techniques he sees are very advanced techniques that are attempted by people without the appropriate foundations, that they learn techniques in an inappropriate order or lack appropriate fundemental training. I suppose it is most obvious in those that revert to "heave and grunt", striking etc to get started.

Dont know whether that helps. I dont like writing about it as it is never adequate enough. You have to get on the mat with the practitioners for some time to pick up the nuances.

Kind regards,

Barrie

[Stuart Rosenberg]

Actually, the stronger the other person is, the easier it is to apply aiki.

The more force your opponent puts into the attack, the more force for you there is to use against him.

The 'softer' your opponent stays, the harder it is to find the little power that is there and use it.

Greetings

I agree maybe I'm not explaining good enough?

#1. I can grip very hard (strong) stay relaxed and move with the tech and resist an Aiki techs.

#2. If I'm strong and stiff as a board I will lose my balance for sure!

My original comment was refering to #1.

[chongmookwan]

When somebody graps, he is always putting some energy in there.

It is up to the quality of the aiki master to see if he can utilize that energy.

[Bruce W Sims]

What I have noticed is very much akin to what Barrie has shared. Though we are often at a loss to know exactly the optimal order for learn the Hapkido arts, there IS an order. People who take things out of order are setting themselves up for failure. I can't think of anywhere this is more true than at that nexus between YU SOOL and HAPKIYUSOOL.

A person begins with YU SOOL since it provides the gross motor skills necessary to understand how the overall technique is accomplished. This is, effectively, the sort of "heave-and-grunt" art to which, I suspect, Barrie alludes. This is NOT to say that one cannot become highly proficient in this level of art by itself. Certainly folks such as my own teacher, JI Han Jae and others have made a whole career out of working on this level, Likwsie this is the level upon which most S-D programs, combat applications and para-military applications are often based and they seem to have no problems with it.

However, for those who wish to move on to a higher level of practice, HAPKI YU SOOL offers a refinement of the YU SOOL material. Now, my sense is that we can run into a bit of a problem here.

It IS possible to begin instruction in HAPKIYUSOOL and focus entirely on the higher practice without first providing an underpinning in the earlier YU SOOL material. As Barrie points out, using the concussive material in HAPKIYUSOOL, it is possible to simply go through kicking and striking material repeatedly solely as a conditioning effort until the higher ranks. In the same manner one can likewise teach "slipping a punch"--- a rather sophisticated form of blocking---- without actually teaching the earlier Hard Block and Soft Block material. However, I believe that people who choose to jump into the deep end of the pool --- as it were--- and begin straight away with Hapkiyusool should be prepared to suspend their intellectualization and take much on faith until they have had suffcient experience. Otherwise, I would encourage them to return to the YU SOOL end of the pool where practice is a function of simple Physics.

Let me also say that Yu Sool and Hapkiyusool as well as their ju-jutsu and aiki-jujutsu Japanese traditions are not unique. Chinese Chin Na is often deceptively complex in its theory and applications. I am sure noone faults an indivdual for studying Shuai Chao or San Shou for its combat effectiveness and ease of learning. However, I would not readily be misled about such practices as CHEN TCC "push hands" simply because it can be learned as a separate art, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bluecrab]

...